I am thrilled to finally see Max gaining some much deserved recognition - and to see you, for whom I have so much respect and admiration, appreciating and drawing from the wisdom (well beyond his years) he shares so humbly ❤️
I’m guessing, but I think people like me and Max and even yourself Wayne, are accustomed to simmering on the back burner:) I just knew I had to dive in to his thoughts when I saw him on Mark Vernon’s podcast and my intuition was right!
Max - thank you for attempting to help us with perhaps the most elusive of mystics...
A simple question: Is my intuition correct that it is of very "real" (material) fruit trees of which Boehme speaks?
That this is not just a "spiritual" metaphor he is engaged in?
"the material speech of Christ outpaceth the ability to speak of it"
In other words - that the apple tree growing in my back yard IS "material speech" - the speech of Christ - and not a mere "Scientific" fact... yes "that" - but so much more?
Or am I missing the point entirely - reading too much into both Boehme and your remarks?
no that's exactly right. I think we don't take the words literally enough and hence imagine that Boehme, for instance, is talking about some other, spiritual trees.
“There is a great book,” as Augustine wrote, “the very appearance of created things. Look above you! Look below you! Note it. Read it. God, whom you want to discover, never wrote that book with ink. Instead He set before your eyes the things that He had made!”
what else can it mean that God speaks Creation into being, and that Christ is the Logos?
“79. Now when the astringent or harsh and the bitter qualities get their light from the heat, then they see the sweet quality, and taste of its sweet water, and then they continually make haste after the sweet water, and drink it up, for they are very hard, rough and thirsty, and the heat drieth them quite up.
80. And the sweet quality always flieth from the bitter and the astringent, and always stretcheth its palate wider, and the bitter and the astringent continually hasten after the sweet, and refresh themselves from the sweet, and dry up the body.
81. Thus is the true springing or vegetation in nature, be it in man, beast, wood, herbs or stones.
Now observe the End of Nature in this World.
82. When the sweet quality thus flieth from the bitter, and from the sour and astringent, then the astringent and the bitter make all the haste they can after it, as their best treasure; and the sweet presseth vehemently from them, and striveth so much that it driveth and penetrateth through the astringent or harsh quality, and rends the body, and goeth forth from the body, out above the earth, and hasteneth so fast, till a long stalk groweth up.
83. Then the heat above the earth presseth upon the stalk, and so the bitter quality is then kindled by the heat, and it [the stalk] receiveth a repulse from the heat, so that it is terrified, and the astringent quality drieth it.
84. Therein the astringent, the sweet, the bitter and the heat struggle together, and the astringent quality in its coldness continually maketh their dryness, and so the sweet withdraweth on the sides, and the others hasten after it.
85. But when it seeth that it is like to be taken or captivated (the bitter quality from within pressing so hard upon it, and the heat from without pressing upon it also), it maketh the bitter fervent or burning, and inflameth it, and there it [the sweet quality] leapeth, springing up through the astringent quality, and riseth up again aloft; so there cometh to be a hard knot behind it in that place where the struggling was, and the knot gets a hole or orifice.
86. But when the sweet quality leapeth or springeth up through the knot, then the bitter quality had so much affected or wrought upon it that it was all in a trembling; and as soon as it cometh above the knot it suddenly stretcheth itself forth on all sides, striving to fly from the bitter quality; and in that stretching forth its body keepeth hollow in the middle, and in the trembling, leaping or springing up through the knot, it still gets more stalk or leaves, and now is frolick or cheerly that it hath escaped the battle.
87. So when the heat from without thus presseth upon the stalk, then the qualities become kindled in the stalk, and press through the stalk, and so become affected or wrought upon in the external light of the sun, and generate colours in the stalk, according to the kind of its quality.
88. But so long as the sweet water is in the stalk, the stalk retaineth its greenish colour according to the kind of the sweet quality.
89. Such substance the qualities always bring to pass with the heat in the stalk, and the stalk always groweth farther, and always one storm or assault is held after another, whereby the stalk always getteth more knots, and still spreadeth forth its branches farther and farther.
90. In the meanwhile the heat from without always drieth the sweet water in the stalk, and the stalk is always smaller at the top; the higher it groweth the smaller it is, growing on so long till it can escape or run no farther.
91. And then the sweet quality yieldeth to be taken captive, and so the bitter, the sour, the sweet and the astringent reign jointly together, and the sweet stretcheth itself a little forth, but it can escape no more, for it is captivated or
caught.
92. And then from all the qualities which are in the body, there groweth a bud or head, and there is a new body in the bud or head, which is formed or figured answerable or like to the first root in the earth, only now it gets another more
subtile form.
93. And then the sweet quality extends itself gently or mildly, and there grow little subtile leaves in the head, which are of the kind of all the qualities, and then the sweet water is as it were a pregnant woman new with child, having conceived the seed, and it always presseth onward, till it openeth the head.
94. And then also the sweet quality presseth forth in little leaves, like a woman who is in travail and bringing forth, but the little leaves or blossoms have no more its colour and form, but the form of all the qualities; for now the sweet quality must bring forth the children of the other qualities.
95. And when this sweet mother hath brought forth the fair, green, blue, white, red and yellow flowers, blossoms or children, then she groweth quite weary, and cannot long nourish or nurse these children, neither can she have them long, seeing they are but her step-children, which are
very tender.
96. And so when the outward heat presseth upon these tender children, all the qualities in the children come to be kindled, for the spirit of life qualifieth or floweth in them.
97. And seeing they are too weak for this strong spirit, and cannot elevate themselves, they yield or surrender their noble power, and that smells so lovely and with so pleasant a savour that it rejoiceth the very heart, and maketh it laugh; but they must wither and fall off, because they are too tender for this spirit, ring forth their fruit or children,and every child is qualified or conditioned according to the kind and property of all the qualities.
98. For the spirit draweth from the head or bud into the blossoms, and the head or bud is formed according to the kind of all the qualities; the astringent quality attracteth or collecteth the body of the bud or head, and the sweet quality softeneth it and spreadeth it abroad, and the bitter quality parteth or distinguisheth the matter into members, and the heat is the living spirit therein.
99. Now all the qualities labour or work therein, and b...When the sweet quality thus stretcheth or wideneth itself, and retireth from the bitter, then the astringent always presseth after it, and would also fain taste of the sweet: and always maketh the body, that is behind it, and in it, to be dry; for the sweet quality is the mother of the water, and is very meek, mild, soft and gentle.
100. This they drive and act so long, till all the matter is quite dried, till the sweet quality or sweet water is dried up, and then the fruit falls off and the stalk drieth also and falleth down.
Well done! So many lovely connections. Thank you.
I am thrilled to finally see Max gaining some much deserved recognition - and to see you, for whom I have so much respect and admiration, appreciating and drawing from the wisdom (well beyond his years) he shares so humbly ❤️
I’m guessing, but I think people like me and Max and even yourself Wayne, are accustomed to simmering on the back burner:) I just knew I had to dive in to his thoughts when I saw him on Mark Vernon’s podcast and my intuition was right!
thank you both for the kind words; I'm very humbled
Max - thank you for attempting to help us with perhaps the most elusive of mystics...
A simple question: Is my intuition correct that it is of very "real" (material) fruit trees of which Boehme speaks?
That this is not just a "spiritual" metaphor he is engaged in?
"the material speech of Christ outpaceth the ability to speak of it"
In other words - that the apple tree growing in my back yard IS "material speech" - the speech of Christ - and not a mere "Scientific" fact... yes "that" - but so much more?
Or am I missing the point entirely - reading too much into both Boehme and your remarks?
Thanks!
no that's exactly right. I think we don't take the words literally enough and hence imagine that Boehme, for instance, is talking about some other, spiritual trees.
“There is a great book,” as Augustine wrote, “the very appearance of created things. Look above you! Look below you! Note it. Read it. God, whom you want to discover, never wrote that book with ink. Instead He set before your eyes the things that He had made!”
what else can it mean that God speaks Creation into being, and that Christ is the Logos?
Very tardy response for me - but thanks so much, Max, for taking time to answer my question - It is very much appreciated!
Really really timely and lovely. Thank you Max.
“79. Now when the astringent or harsh and the bitter qualities get their light from the heat, then they see the sweet quality, and taste of its sweet water, and then they continually make haste after the sweet water, and drink it up, for they are very hard, rough and thirsty, and the heat drieth them quite up.
80. And the sweet quality always flieth from the bitter and the astringent, and always stretcheth its palate wider, and the bitter and the astringent continually hasten after the sweet, and refresh themselves from the sweet, and dry up the body.
81. Thus is the true springing or vegetation in nature, be it in man, beast, wood, herbs or stones.
Now observe the End of Nature in this World.
82. When the sweet quality thus flieth from the bitter, and from the sour and astringent, then the astringent and the bitter make all the haste they can after it, as their best treasure; and the sweet presseth vehemently from them, and striveth so much that it driveth and penetrateth through the astringent or harsh quality, and rends the body, and goeth forth from the body, out above the earth, and hasteneth so fast, till a long stalk groweth up.
83. Then the heat above the earth presseth upon the stalk, and so the bitter quality is then kindled by the heat, and it [the stalk] receiveth a repulse from the heat, so that it is terrified, and the astringent quality drieth it.
84. Therein the astringent, the sweet, the bitter and the heat struggle together, and the astringent quality in its coldness continually maketh their dryness, and so the sweet withdraweth on the sides, and the others hasten after it.
85. But when it seeth that it is like to be taken or captivated (the bitter quality from within pressing so hard upon it, and the heat from without pressing upon it also), it maketh the bitter fervent or burning, and inflameth it, and there it [the sweet quality] leapeth, springing up through the astringent quality, and riseth up again aloft; so there cometh to be a hard knot behind it in that place where the struggling was, and the knot gets a hole or orifice.
86. But when the sweet quality leapeth or springeth up through the knot, then the bitter quality had so much affected or wrought upon it that it was all in a trembling; and as soon as it cometh above the knot it suddenly stretcheth itself forth on all sides, striving to fly from the bitter quality; and in that stretching forth its body keepeth hollow in the middle, and in the trembling, leaping or springing up through the knot, it still gets more stalk or leaves, and now is frolick or cheerly that it hath escaped the battle.
87. So when the heat from without thus presseth upon the stalk, then the qualities become kindled in the stalk, and press through the stalk, and so become affected or wrought upon in the external light of the sun, and generate colours in the stalk, according to the kind of its quality.
88. But so long as the sweet water is in the stalk, the stalk retaineth its greenish colour according to the kind of the sweet quality.
89. Such substance the qualities always bring to pass with the heat in the stalk, and the stalk always groweth farther, and always one storm or assault is held after another, whereby the stalk always getteth more knots, and still spreadeth forth its branches farther and farther.
90. In the meanwhile the heat from without always drieth the sweet water in the stalk, and the stalk is always smaller at the top; the higher it groweth the smaller it is, growing on so long till it can escape or run no farther.
91. And then the sweet quality yieldeth to be taken captive, and so the bitter, the sour, the sweet and the astringent reign jointly together, and the sweet stretcheth itself a little forth, but it can escape no more, for it is captivated or
caught.
92. And then from all the qualities which are in the body, there groweth a bud or head, and there is a new body in the bud or head, which is formed or figured answerable or like to the first root in the earth, only now it gets another more
subtile form.
93. And then the sweet quality extends itself gently or mildly, and there grow little subtile leaves in the head, which are of the kind of all the qualities, and then the sweet water is as it were a pregnant woman new with child, having conceived the seed, and it always presseth onward, till it openeth the head.
94. And then also the sweet quality presseth forth in little leaves, like a woman who is in travail and bringing forth, but the little leaves or blossoms have no more its colour and form, but the form of all the qualities; for now the sweet quality must bring forth the children of the other qualities.
95. And when this sweet mother hath brought forth the fair, green, blue, white, red and yellow flowers, blossoms or children, then she groweth quite weary, and cannot long nourish or nurse these children, neither can she have them long, seeing they are but her step-children, which are
very tender.
96. And so when the outward heat presseth upon these tender children, all the qualities in the children come to be kindled, for the spirit of life qualifieth or floweth in them.
97. And seeing they are too weak for this strong spirit, and cannot elevate themselves, they yield or surrender their noble power, and that smells so lovely and with so pleasant a savour that it rejoiceth the very heart, and maketh it laugh; but they must wither and fall off, because they are too tender for this spirit, ring forth their fruit or children,and every child is qualified or conditioned according to the kind and property of all the qualities.
98. For the spirit draweth from the head or bud into the blossoms, and the head or bud is formed according to the kind of all the qualities; the astringent quality attracteth or collecteth the body of the bud or head, and the sweet quality softeneth it and spreadeth it abroad, and the bitter quality parteth or distinguisheth the matter into members, and the heat is the living spirit therein.
99. Now all the qualities labour or work therein, and b...When the sweet quality thus stretcheth or wideneth itself, and retireth from the bitter, then the astringent always presseth after it, and would also fain taste of the sweet: and always maketh the body, that is behind it, and in it, to be dry; for the sweet quality is the mother of the water, and is very meek, mild, soft and gentle.
100. This they drive and act so long, till all the matter is quite dried, till the sweet quality or sweet water is dried up, and then the fruit falls off and the stalk drieth also and falleth down.
And this is the End of Nature in this World.”
—Jakob Böhme, “Aurora”