Interesting, God is in principle accountable for the correlation of subject and object …I think I have quoted correctly yes? Everyone go back to read it I lose my comments going with this and don’t mean to be contrary just trying to understand…, I guess in principle is a sort of qualifier for that statement because we cannot truly know all that God is “ accountable” for, in fact that is sort of a strange word to use because really we have been given the gift of being “ accountable “ also yes? So maybe I am just quibbling here sorry but perhaps the all encompassing truth of the correlation of subject and object only God is aware of as He is the Creator of “ it” yet each of us individually have our own and are “ accountable “ for our own relationship/ correlation of subject and object which is valid and true to us whether we are the subject or the object because all real living beings derive their life from God it can not be simply a two way relationship or correlation between two, God must be part or present or in it in someway for it to be real and living and not deception…. Is that what you mean by saying it is in a sense theosis because to truly see and experience something it has to be done with God and Love?
Cheers Max - very interesting and brilliantly written. I've been on this same line of thinking recently.
I've been calling what you refer to as a paradigm (which i think is a better term) as a 'philosophical climate' - and using weather as an analogy to better my understanding of where I think we are.
I then imagine this weather (if we aren't vigilant) shapes our lens (way of seeing and relating to the world) - and there is also another issue, where we become over-identified with this fashioned lens, and we become like a clam stuck to a rock. It's at this point where we would dogmatically see everything as extrinsic. (at this point we are unwitting slaves of seen and unseen influences).
"There is no way to see the sunset as evidence for the Earth’s orbit from within the geocentric paradigm of the solar system." 👍🏻
yes, agreed. thanks for the comment, Nathanael. I argued that the German loan word from Goethe, "Vorstellungsart," is superior to the Greek one "paradigm," enlisted the astronomical metaphor of "the procession of the equinoxes" to illustrate the so called "procession of the Vortstellungsarten" in my dissertation, p. 270:
"As another example, one may first consider the stellium of ideas that makes up the Copernican picture of the solar system and then attempt to discern the backdrop against which this group is set. The basic conception that subtends pertinent concepts like the zodiac houses and the wandering stars is the operative Vorstellungsart or paradigm. The notion of an evolution of consciousness inquires into a procession and transformation of these very Vorstellungsarten or paradigmata through history. Barfield has inquired into the nature of this procession with uncommon perspicacity and therefore it is to him that I will now turn."
The Earth has its own elliptical position on the ecliptic of the zodiac. It sits as such at a unique angle, which causes nutation of the earth's axis. Of course, weather plays its part, but also the primordial flood, which began the seasonal changes. Here you go for the Steiner description of it. I know you know only the materialistic part, Nathanael, but that is still good. Read on for Steiner's comprehensive analysis. The human mind is the inclusive element.
But then also just keep going over this in my mind because so many times we know somehow that we are not getting the true picture that we don’t understand it all and then too there are times we don’t know that we are not really understanding it all and yet think we do and just keep on in our delusions which for us is reality and because we were made in the Image and Likeness of God and He does respect our free will this is our reality until something occurs to change it so it may be not alive and eternal but as long as we think it is the truth and that’s all we see it is our truth and I think maybe does in a way influence the collective consciousness clearly you see how it does create responses thinking etc begets other delusions in other people …. Oh boy I really need to just chew on this some more 😊Love in Christ friend! Best to you on your doctorate. are you going to publish it. How close are you to being done? Awesome! 🙏☦️🛐
Rudolf Steiner describes that an Initiate must strive to be an "objective human being". This is no easy task because the overwhelming tendency is to lose our naive clairvoyance possessed in the first three years of life for earth-bound memory, and the experience of subject-object distinctions. This is normally a gradual process, where the so-called "subjective self"arises, and we become fitted for the world. Yet, there are occasions, and particularly with Initiates, in which a sudden and dramatic event occurs in which subject- object distinctions come into being literally "right before one's eyes". This creates the condition of the "Homeless Soul", and I believe that Goethe was one of these. Steiner gives an excellent biographical lecture here on Goethe, and where it seems that this kind of dramatic occurrence of the type spoken of gave him the advantage of objective representations, which he would come to call the primal phenomenon sought in every interaction. To be an Objective-Subjective Self is a condition of the Initiate, and the truly objective world stands out in reflecting archetypal causes, while the subjective self casts shadows.
Interesting, God is in principle accountable for the correlation of subject and object …I think I have quoted correctly yes? Everyone go back to read it I lose my comments going with this and don’t mean to be contrary just trying to understand…, I guess in principle is a sort of qualifier for that statement because we cannot truly know all that God is “ accountable” for, in fact that is sort of a strange word to use because really we have been given the gift of being “ accountable “ also yes? So maybe I am just quibbling here sorry but perhaps the all encompassing truth of the correlation of subject and object only God is aware of as He is the Creator of “ it” yet each of us individually have our own and are “ accountable “ for our own relationship/ correlation of subject and object which is valid and true to us whether we are the subject or the object because all real living beings derive their life from God it can not be simply a two way relationship or correlation between two, God must be part or present or in it in someway for it to be real and living and not deception…. Is that what you mean by saying it is in a sense theosis because to truly see and experience something it has to be done with God and Love?
exactly. thank you, Holly.
Cheers Max - very interesting and brilliantly written. I've been on this same line of thinking recently.
I've been calling what you refer to as a paradigm (which i think is a better term) as a 'philosophical climate' - and using weather as an analogy to better my understanding of where I think we are.
I then imagine this weather (if we aren't vigilant) shapes our lens (way of seeing and relating to the world) - and there is also another issue, where we become over-identified with this fashioned lens, and we become like a clam stuck to a rock. It's at this point where we would dogmatically see everything as extrinsic. (at this point we are unwitting slaves of seen and unseen influences).
"There is no way to see the sunset as evidence for the Earth’s orbit from within the geocentric paradigm of the solar system." 👍🏻
yes, agreed. thanks for the comment, Nathanael. I argued that the German loan word from Goethe, "Vorstellungsart," is superior to the Greek one "paradigm," enlisted the astronomical metaphor of "the procession of the equinoxes" to illustrate the so called "procession of the Vortstellungsarten" in my dissertation, p. 270:
"As another example, one may first consider the stellium of ideas that makes up the Copernican picture of the solar system and then attempt to discern the backdrop against which this group is set. The basic conception that subtends pertinent concepts like the zodiac houses and the wandering stars is the operative Vorstellungsart or paradigm. The notion of an evolution of consciousness inquires into a procession and transformation of these very Vorstellungsarten or paradigmata through history. Barfield has inquired into the nature of this procession with uncommon perspicacity and therefore it is to him that I will now turn."
The Earth has its own elliptical position on the ecliptic of the zodiac. It sits as such at a unique angle, which causes nutation of the earth's axis. Of course, weather plays its part, but also the primordial flood, which began the seasonal changes. Here you go for the Steiner description of it. I know you know only the materialistic part, Nathanael, but that is still good. Read on for Steiner's comprehensive analysis. The human mind is the inclusive element.
https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA201/English/RSP1972/19200416p01.html
Then, what were you saying?
But then also just keep going over this in my mind because so many times we know somehow that we are not getting the true picture that we don’t understand it all and then too there are times we don’t know that we are not really understanding it all and yet think we do and just keep on in our delusions which for us is reality and because we were made in the Image and Likeness of God and He does respect our free will this is our reality until something occurs to change it so it may be not alive and eternal but as long as we think it is the truth and that’s all we see it is our truth and I think maybe does in a way influence the collective consciousness clearly you see how it does create responses thinking etc begets other delusions in other people …. Oh boy I really need to just chew on this some more 😊Love in Christ friend! Best to you on your doctorate. are you going to publish it. How close are you to being done? Awesome! 🙏☦️🛐
The Redemption of Thinking, successfully defending in June 2020. here is a post about it:
https://theoriapress.substack.com/p/ten-questions-on-the-redemption-of
Rudolf Steiner describes that an Initiate must strive to be an "objective human being". This is no easy task because the overwhelming tendency is to lose our naive clairvoyance possessed in the first three years of life for earth-bound memory, and the experience of subject-object distinctions. This is normally a gradual process, where the so-called "subjective self"arises, and we become fitted for the world. Yet, there are occasions, and particularly with Initiates, in which a sudden and dramatic event occurs in which subject- object distinctions come into being literally "right before one's eyes". This creates the condition of the "Homeless Soul", and I believe that Goethe was one of these. Steiner gives an excellent biographical lecture here on Goethe, and where it seems that this kind of dramatic occurrence of the type spoken of gave him the advantage of objective representations, which he would come to call the primal phenomenon sought in every interaction. To be an Objective-Subjective Self is a condition of the Initiate, and the truly objective world stands out in reflecting archetypal causes, while the subjective self casts shadows.
https://rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA172/English/AP1984/19161104p01.html
As well, did not Goethe find a friend in J .G. Herder when he desperately needed one? From Leipzig to Strasbourg in the critical years.